Partnerships between advisors, CPAs, and attorneys should be a natural fit because their roles all involve handling the flow of client assets. And a planner can add value to client relationships by bringing in other qualified professionals who can help when major changes happen. But just because they should fit together doesn’t mean they always do fit together.
On this Elementality, Abby talks with Kent Owings of Ironstone Financial about what he does to find success when working with other professionals. For a financial advisor, collaborating with others should be an important part of their services. But to have a truly successful relationship, it has to be mutually beneficial.
Podcast Transcript
Kent Owings:
All three of us will meet with clients in one meeting, 5especially if the clients drive two hours from Sun Valley, and they just sit down with all of their planners in there. And they act as a quarterback, even though they’re doing most of the work, but they value me just being the quarterback, passing the ball, and staying organized on it for everybody. And the CPA loves it. The attorney loves it. The clients absolutely love it, that they don’t have to talk to all these people with separate conversations and try to translate that we can professionally talk on their behalf.
Kent Owings:
Totally.
Kent Owings:
And that. And so it’s added huge value to my clients. And it makes them sticky too ’cause if they leave one professional, they feel like they have to leave all three.
Justin Haines:
Welcome to Elementality. Each episode, we will explore the challenges and the opportunities faced by financial advisors and how advisors can use elements to grow their business, and serve their clients better. We hope you enjoy this episode.
Abby Morton:
Welcome to Elementality everyone. I’m your host today, Abby Morin here with Kent Owings. Welcome to the show, Kent.
Kent Owings:
Thanks for having me.
Abby Morton:
Excited to have you on. Kent and I have been in a growth camp these last couple of weeks together, learning all about how to use elements to find prospects and bring them in and convert them as clients. And as we were talking, Kent started sharing something he’s done that’s unique in his practice with centers of influence. And so I wanted to have you on today to talk about what you’ve done and how you’ve created it, so others can copy what you’ve done. For lack of a better word, how does that sound today?
Kent Owings:
Sounds good.
Abby Morton:
Okay. Awesome. So why don’t you start high level, tell us who these other centers of influence are, that you refer back and forth to. And then we’ll kind of talk about how that relationship got started.
Kent Owings:
Yeah, so it’s nothing new. If you’re an advisor, you’ve had a mentor sometime in your life, telling you how important it is to build relationships with CPAs and attorneys. And I’ve talked to so many advisors, and they just say they just give up. Like it’s impossible. “Yeah, I refer all my business to the CPA or this attorney, but I never receive anything back and… ”
Abby Morton:
Yeah, that’s what we were hearing a lot in that growth camp group, right? That’s what everyone was saying.
Kent Owings:
So then I got lucky. It was intentionality, but intentionality in other areas that led to the majority of my referrals come from CPAs and attorneys.
Abby Morton:
Okay. If you’re feeling like people are saying it’s impossible, do you feel like you were ever there as well, and feeling like it didn’t work out, or has it always just worked well for you, maybe you’re just a special case?
Kent Owings:
No, in fact, there was one CPA that I referred to for over six years, and never once did he refer somebody back to me.
Abby Morton:
Wow.
Kent Owings:
And then it was within maybe a three-month time period that that relationship just completely solidified. And he himself, I’d say in two years has referred over 7 million in assets to me, so it’s…
Abby Morton:
Oh, wow. Okay. So tell us then, how did that relationship solidify? What do you do to help maybe make him feel more comfortable that you were someone that he would wanna refer business to?
Kent Owings:
Yep. So first, he’s just a good CPA, and he is really good with small businesses, and I love small businesses. And so we had a mutual client and I met him in a meeting where this client was going to sell his business. And so I’m there and then I tried to build a relationship with them. So I took him out to lunch and I did all of the traditional things to have that relationship. And I sent him I mean, gosh, that guy also takes care of my brother and his business and my mom, and myself. So he is my CPA even for so long. And I got to the point, I don’t care if he gives me any referrals back. He’s really good at what he does. I trust him and he takes care of people and he’s a branch of my reputation and I trust that.
Abby Morton:
So is that how you initially found him is through this mutual client and then getting to know him more, he became your CPA and you just continued to refer business ’cause you just honestly liked the guy?
Kent Owings:
Yep. So then the biggest shift, which this brings up the first point is then, I went from working for primarily an insurance company that does insurance first to just a straight RIA, and so then removed any conflict of interest with that, and I didn’t sell any insurance anymore. And so I would say that isn’t important, but building a relationship with a CPA whose advice is directly in alignment with your advice is important, ’cause there’s some CPAs that like insurance, some CPAs don’t. And so I never knew in six years, I didn’t know that he didn’t like insurance. He doesn’t like working with companies that sell these insurance policies first. No idea. So that was a big lesson that I learned through that transition.
Abby Morton:
Yeah. How did you end up discovering that, ’cause that could be like an awkward conversation, I’m thinking?
Kent Owings:
Oh, he told me. Nope.
Abby Morton:
He just flat out and said?
Kent Owings:
First referral he gave me, he called me up. He’s like, “Kent”, he is like, “I was really hesitant to give you a referral while you’re working for X company. And now that you’re operating in this way, I feel comfortable sending you someone.”
Abby Morton:
So how did he know that you had switched what you were doing?
Kent Owings:
So that leads into the second biggest thing. And if you’re listening to this, this is the most important piece of advice I’m going to give you. So write this part down or just do it. But I started just because I wanted to learn more, and I wanted my knowledge and tax planning to be greater. Every single client, I asked to sit down in their planning meeting with their CPA, so every single one. So I just started learning all the different CPAs in town, and found out now I have three CPAs. I only had one at the start. Now I have three of them, and they’re all different purposes. There’s a small business. There’s a real estate, and then there’s just mergers and acquisitions CPA.
Kent Owings:
But then, I started just asking every single client, and I’d been referring to ’em for six years, right? So, now I have all these other clients that already use them, and so I’m having all these meetings with them every week. And so he loves having me there. And I just say, I’m not afraid to ask a stupid question. So that’s why I’m there. And I’m advocating for my client and, I’m making the CPA look good. Those are my two roles when I sit down with another professional as advocate for my client, and make the other professional look good, that it is not to make yourself look good. It’s not to make yourself look like you’re the smartest person in the room, but go learn. Don’t be afraid to ask a stupid question and advocate for your client and make your professional look good. And so, that kept that constant communication, because I’m in all these meetings with them.
Abby Morton:
Yeah, yeah.
Kent Owings:
So then he’s really seeing the advice and he’s seeing the questions. He’s seeing my advice back to them in real time. And so that just brought such a deeper level of comfort with that CPA to then that’s when he turned around. And man, I remember, I actually had a review with the first client he referred to me this morning and he didn’t just send it to me. He was like,”I’m going to send this client over to interview you.” Because there were three other advisors that this client was interviewing as well.
Abby Morton:
Okay.
Kent Owings:
And, now this client is a fly fishing buddy and has referred so many people beyond that too. But I remember that, and he was skeptical when he came in and he referred some other advisors too, which is great, and now I encourage it.
Abby Morton:
Yeah.
Kent Owings:
And that’s a great way that helped me get my foot in the door with an attorney even it is more just, “Hey, have him interview me.” And when you’re sitting there or if they ever bring somebody up, don’t just expect them to give you that referral or just be like, “Oh, I’d love for them to interview me.” And yeah, have them interview some of these other people. I love that. I love getting the client even more when they are interviewing other advisors.
Abby Morton:
Yeah, definitely. Well, I think it’s important for the client at the end of the day, if they’re going through this interview process, then they picked you, right? Like you were able to stand out, I think I’ve even found a lot of people just with the Elements way and the way that we have better conversations. I think we’re more caring about the person, what’s their values, right? What is their purpose in even going down this path with a financial planner. In a way, I think it helps us stand out from those other advisors who are just like, give me all your assets and let’s talk about your money and nothing else. So I think I would encourage it as well.
Kent Owings:
Yeah. It’s more about adding value than trying to sell something. And so I’d say that’s directly in alignment with what Elements is doing and… But then, my biggest advocate on the attorney side, it was the same thing. So that was first, I was just referring a lot of people to her and she was… She’s just the best. She came from the litigation side and she was learning the estate side. And then she started working with another estate planner that he was really good, and he was the one I used to refer a lot to, and he didn’t really refer a lot out either. But then, this girl, she’s just so smart and so I knew that, and I would even tell her other advisors that I’m friends with, I was like, “Look, watch out for this attorney.” I said she’s going to pass everybody on her knowledge, because she keeps learning and she’s just coming from a different world of law. And so, she’s crossing her stuff and yep, and sure enough, she’s now… I mean that’s where… Well, we were talking about Sun Valley and now 31% of my business is in Sun Valley. And that, now that’s formed just this great relationship because she has this partnership with a large firm in Sun Valley. And then the CPA and myself now, we all work together. And so all three of us will meet with clients in one meeting, especially if the clients drive two hours from Sun Valley and they just sit down with all of their planners in there.
Abby Morton:
Yeah.
Kent Owings:
And they act as the quarterback, even though they’re doing most of the work, but they value me just being the quarterback, passing the ball and staying organized on it for everybody, and CPA loves it, the attorney loves it. The clients absolutely love it, that they don’t have to talk to all these people. It was separate conversations and try to translate that we can professionally talk on their behalf.
Abby Morton:
Totally.
Kent Owings:
Them with their, and that. And so it’s added huge value to my clients. And it makes ’em sticky too, because if they leave one professional, they feel like they have to leave all three. So that’s…
[laughter]
Abby Morton:
Definitely.
Kent Owings:
Knock on wood, they haven’t left yet. Not one of them. But…
Abby Morton:
So it sounds to me like this attorney and CPA got comfortable with you because you really were taking the time to go to these meetings, to sit down, to have conversations. I can just only imagine how much time that takes out of your day. Yes, you’re learning things from the attorney and the CPA that you can take back, but you’re also not meeting with the other client, right? You’re not necessarily growing your business. So help us understand that a little bit more and the time that it takes and how can we like justify spending the time being in all those other meetings?
Kent Owings:
That’s a really good point. So that comes side by side with having an account minimum. I’m not gonna go meet if there’s no planning to do, complex planning to do, don’t sit in a meeting with the attorney if they’re drawing up a simple will. But it’d be beneficial once to really hear the attorney’s process from start to finish. Just sit down with a client, but you don’t need to sit down with every client for a simple will. And so, but I’m sitting in with them on selling a business. So that’s a huge transition.
Kent Owings:
I’m sitting in all the meetings where, okay husband passed away. Wife just found out that they didn’t have $2 million saved, but they had almost $16 million saved. And now she has an estate tax planning issue, and she wants to gift to her son, and she has charitable contributions. So then you absolutely need the CPA and the attorney and myself all in the same room for those clients, and those just get super fun. And then do your homework, so you know what you’re talking about when you’re going into there, so you can ask the questions. You’re not giving the recommendation, but you can… Like a QPRT was one of them, a Qualified Personal Real Estate Trust. So you can, that’s where I just asked the question for this lady who I mean lives in Sun Valley, Hey is it worth it to look into a to a QPRT to where she doesn’t plan on selling the house ever? And I’m not gonna go into the planning details on that. You can look it up if you don’t know what it is. But that one question added so much value and to go into there that it didn’t come from me as necessarily a recommendation, but it came as a question of, “Hey I know enough to ask these questions.”
Kent Owings:
But these are the people that need to structure it and take action on it. And so you gotta still know your stuff, and be able to ask those questions but then you have to be in the meeting to really get that relationship and to keep up that relationship.
Abby Morton:
Right. Okay. No, that makes sense. And obviously when you’re dealing with those more complex issues in conversation, it’s almost doing you a service by being in the meeting because then you know what to come out of it. You know actions that you need to take, the CPA needs to take, you really can move things forward but I think that’s a good point of evaluating the meeting in advance and knowing if it’s going to be almost worth your time or not in a sense, right?
Kent Owings:
Yep.
Abby Morton:
Okay.
Kent Owings:
Yep. Worth your time, worth your client’s time. You don’t need to waste anybody’s time, if they’re a real estate investor. I absolutely sit in the meeting with the attorney and the CPA, and if they have a high net worth, the more complex the case is, the more important it is to be there.
Abby Morton:
Okay. Great. That’s very helpful. Now tell us, was there ever any… Sorry, was there ever any sort of formal arrangement with the CPA or with the attorney that’s like, “Hey you’re kind of my go-to. I’m going to be referring most of my clients that need CPA help to you.” And some agreement or was it just over time? It sounds like for six years you were referring to the one CPA and eventually he then just decided referring back because you became not an insurance salesman and mostly a financial planner like… So no other, no formal arrangement necessarily.
Kent Owings:
No. Which I had a conversation with another estate attorney who we work back and forth with too, so he’s more my simple will and the easier cases, go to him. The complex goes to the lady I work with but he was telling me that an advisor was trying to or telling him, he could get licensed and they could do a promoter’s agreement or a solicitor’s agreement and how to pay the attorney, and that conflict of interest. Because especially with estate attorneys, they are estate attorneys because they care about people. They did not go into litigation, they did not go into ambulance chasing. They didn’t go into these other forms of law. They went into estate planning to really be there. So they really care about that client service. They really care about these families and they make enough money. That’s not going to be their motivation. And personally, just I try to remove conflicts of interest. You have a formal agreement, now you have to communicate that conflict of interest. You’ve gotta have that. That’s going to naturally lower in my opinion, which could be wrong, but my opinion is that it just kind of lowers the trust factor going in there if you add in that conflict of interest.
Abby Morton:
Okay. Yeah, it’s really about relationship building knowing the people, spending time to get to know them and the referrals will follow or at least they did for you.
Kent Owings:
Yep. And then follow up. So over-communicate on everything. With the CPA, when you find that stuff and you find opportunities to make them look like the hero. And it was immediately the CPA gave me a referral. I mean at a quick glance, I saw that they had a hundred thousand of losses in an individual account. So I immediately reached out to the CPA. I was like, “Hey do we have any opportunities to net out some gains?” He’s like, “Yeah they actually sold a commercial piece of property.” I’m like, “Great I’ve got a hundred thousand of losses we can net out.” And he is like, “Perfect. It’s just over a hundred thousand of these.” And I was like, “Okay, I’ll let you reach out to them. So you can let them know.” Again, let them be the hero. You don’t need to be the hero on that, because then you’re the hero in the professional’s eyes. And they’ll love referring more and more people to you, and more people get referred to them. And then it all works out.
Abby Morton:
I love it. I love it. So any tips or tricks to help other advisors build some referrals with centers of influence? What do you think others can do? Sounds like this relationship took some time to build. So what would you recommend others do?
Kent Owings:
First meet them all, I mean, every time, well, when you’re doing a discovery meeting, that’s the first meeting with the prospect. You should be asking the questions and you should know who is their CPA? Who is their attorney? Who is their insurance person? Who’s their other trusted advisors? That’s absolutely the information you should know. And if you’ve never met that person before, be in that meeting and meet that person, and then keep meeting those until you find the ones that are really aligned both with your personality and your professional recommendations. And then lean in heavy into those people and just give them a lot of referrals, sit in a lot of the meetings, ask them a lot of questions going into it, lean it heavy. And then once that trust is built, the referrals will come, because all they want is their clients to be taken care of.
Abby Morton:
Yeah. Did you ever get pushback from the CPA or even an attorney that’s like, “No, I don’t want you in this meeting, it could be awkward, I wanna be the professional.” How do you help? I could see some CPAs feeling like that, right? How do you help let their guard down to let them know you are coming to help them into further relationship and not to make them feel like they don’t know what they’re doing?
Kent Owings:
Because you’ve heard me say it multiple times now, and I like the language. I’ll tell them, “Hey, do you mind if I sit in the meeting? I’m just gonna be a fly on the wall, and I don’t wanna be afraid to ask a stupid question for my client.” And so when you state that, it’s gonna help lower the guard, it’s gonna say, you’re not trying to posture or anything like that. And you’ve gotta follow through. Do not let an ego, even if the CPA gives a level advice that you don’t agree with, do not argue with the CPA or the attorney in the client meeting.
Abby Morton:
Yeah.
Kent Owings:
Afterwards, you can send a follow up, “Hey, here’s my notes for today. Hey, I have some questions, can you help me clarify the reasoning and the options on this section?” And so yeah, don’t argue, don’t have an ego. And so that’s what I would… And you do just need to sit there and be quiet. In fact, one, the large client in Sun Valley, where this is with a different CPA and because I thought this other CPA was more fitted, who has a huge team behind her, and I thought it would be better to have a female. And so then the CPA, attorney and I met together and we’re working on the case for this client, and I was telling the attorney why I thought this CPA would be the right fit. And the attorney’s like, “Yeah, I think this client would really prefer to be working with a female.” And I said, “So why did you refer to me?” And she’s like, “Well, Kent, you listen like a female.” and so that’s the best compliment I could get there.
Abby Morton:
I love it. I love that.
Kent Owings:
So sitting and being quiet is really important when you’re in there and then asking questions, not making statements.
Abby Morton:
Yeah. I think that’s great. I know I definitely have had a couple meetings that I’ve gone to with clients with CPAs. I even sat in even just a basic will creation for a client just ’cause I was very interested and curious. And I would attest that, I too, I learned a lot. I learned a lot about the clients. I was even able to say and bring up things that the client didn’t even think about or wasn’t even aware of. And so, I agree from the couple that I’ve done, it’s been a very, very small handful of ones that I’ve done. I too found benefit in that. So I think it’s, if you go in with the mindset of, “I’m here to help and I’m here to support, and even here just to learn.” You can take all that knowledge back and apply it to your clients every day. And so I think that’s great as well. So, thank you. Any final last thoughts for our listeners today?
Kent Owings:
It’s a… Your client service model for the rest of your clients is really important. So if you’re referring clients over, you’re working with people and they aren’t excited to talk about you, it’s not going to work. So make sure the rest of your client service model is dialed in.
Abby Morton:
I love it. That’s smart. Make for sure that you’re doing your job well as a financial planner that they’re going to want to refer you to others as well.
Kent Owings:
Yep. Best way to get referrals is to be referable. So [0:23:54.8] ____.
Abby Morton:
I love it. Great. Thank you so much for your insights and thoughts today. I appreciate your time, Kent.
Kent Owings:
Yeah, you bet. Thank you.
Abby Morton:
Hey, have a good one.
Abby Morton:
Next time on Elementality.
Carl Richards:
First of all, I found, and I think this is generally true, and most people listening I think will relate. Everybody seems to love breakfast, but nobody ever has time for it, right?
Abby Morton:
I gotta say it’s my favorite meal ever.
Carl Richards:
Yeah, I think everybody loves it. And you’re like, “Oh, but I just grabbed some oatmeal on the way out.” Like, you never have time…
Abby Morton:
You’re running out of time.
Carl Richards:
Whatever. So I found that people love the idea of like, “Oh yeah, I’m gonna go have breakfast.” Like people love that. The second thing I found with breakfast, is it was way less hectic than as your day goes on, you seem to lose more and more control. Lunch was like, “Oh, a little better.” Dinner was like, “Oh, the day got away from me.”
Abby Morton: To find out more about elements, go to getelements.com/demo. Elementality’s executive producers are Reese Harper and Carl Richards. Elementality is produced by Tadd Henderson and directed by Abby Morton. Have a good one.